41: Experiences of the NCMP and a Different Approach to Nutrition Education With Jennifer Nash

Today I'm talking to nutritionist Jennifer Nash (who is also the newest member of the CIHAS team). In this conversation we're talking about the NCMP, particularly the research Jennifer undertook as part of her Masters course, as well as the work Jennifer has done with Body Happy Org to address some of the issues with the way nutrition is taught in schools.

In this episode we discuss:

👉 Jennifer's recent research into experiences of the NCMP and the harm that appears to be being caused by this programme
👉 Some of the issues with how nutrition is taught in primary schools
👉 The food-positive scheme of work Jennifer created for Body Happy Org 👉 How we can tell our teachers and schools about these resources to help foster a body- and food-positive culture in schools

Enjoy the episode!

Episode Transcript

Intro

Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about food, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm a weight inclusive Registered Nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter.

Today I'm talking to Jennifer Nash. Jennifer is an anti-diet Registered Associate Nutritionist with an interest in childhood nutrition, diabetes, and disordered eating. She's also the newest member of the CIHAS team where she's helping me do background research, editing the newsletter, and supporting readers and listeners with their subscription. So I'm really excited for you to meet Jennifer today.

Jennifer has just completed her Master's in nutrition at Leeds Beckett University where she got a distinction. So please congratulate her in the comments for this episode. I wanted to have Jennifer on to talk about her Master's research, which was an exploration into the experiences of and attitudes towards the NCMP, which is a really under researched area. So her research is super important.

I also wanted to talk to her about some of the work she's done with the Body Happy Org, creating a positive nutrition education, scheme of work for Key Stages 1 and 2. We obviously talk on the podcast and in the newsletter about the problems with nutrition education and the focus on black and white, good/bad binaries around food. So it's really refreshing to have some plug and play resources that teachers can use where they don't have to recreate the wheel.

So Jennifer is going to tell you all about the work that she has done there too, so that you can let your, your schools know that, hey, these resources exist. You don't have to do this all from scratch.

As always, you can follow along with the transcript for this episode at canihaveanothersnack.com. And remember that we are entirely reader and listener supported. Paid members get exclusive access to our monthly All of the Snacks bonus episodes with myself and our audio engineer Lucy Dearlove. Plus you get access to our weekly community discussion threads and our monthly column Dear Laura where I answer your in depth questions with in depth answers.

It's £5 per month or £50 for the year, and as well as getting those sweet perks, you help make this work sustainable for Jennifer, Lucy and myself. So head to canihaveanothersnack.com or click the link in your show notes to upgrade your membership now.

Alright team, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Jennifer.

Main episode

Laura: Jennifer, can you start by telling us a little bit about you and your work?

Jennifer: Sure. So my name's Jennifer. I'm a Registered Associate Nutritionist with a focus mainly on anti-diet nutrition, diabetes, disordered eating, and childhood nutrition particularly. I've just finished a Master's in nutrition, which…much of my work was focused on that, as I'm sure we'll go on to discuss.

And I've just started working with you on the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. So supporting behind the scenes on that, which has been good. And on top of that, I have three small children as well. So that keeps me very busy.

Laura: Yeah, you have a lot on your plate. I am amazed that you've just finished a master's while juggling kids. It's a huge accomplishment. So well done. And we're so excited to have you on board, I say we, it's me, and I guess Lucy, I'll speak on her behalf as well, but yeah, we have a little team going, and I'm excited for the audience to get to know you a little bit, and hear more about your work and the sort of expertise and the kind of, almost the lens that you're bringing to what we're, what we're doing at CIHAS, and I think our sort of approach to nutrition is, is, is obviously aligned and, and really similar.

So, we've just established, you've just finished your Master's. And your dissertation research was looking at the NCMP in schools, which we've touched a little bit on, on this podcast. But I wonder if you could just tell us a little brief bit of background about what it is for anyone who is maybe newer to the podcast.

Jennifer: Sure. So the NCMP stands for the National Child Measurement Programme. And it is a programme that's run by the public health teams and local authorities in schools. And essentially the program weighs and measures kids in reception and in year six. So this happens once a year in schools.

Then typically what happens is the local authorities then send weight feedback to parents and families, where they have classified the child according to the BMI, and then if a child is classified as overweight or very overweight, then typically they will get referred to a weight management service. So that is the programme in essence.

Laura: Okay. So we did kind of a deep dive on the NCMP with Molly Forbes, who you've done some work with as well, as I'll link to that episode for a bit more like background on the NCMP.

But like coming back to…and I'm curious to hear your thoughts or your opinions about why the government mandate this program in schools. Like, what is it that they're looking for? How are they justifying weighing kids in schools?

Jennifer: Yeah. So it began in 2006 as a program. that the government decided was going to be a response to the – quote – “childhood ob*sity epidemic”.

And their idea was that, right, we need to gather some data on kids’ bodies, kids’ weight, and then in 2011, they introduced the weight feedback element of it. So that was then, right, we're going to deliver feedback to parents and families and caregivers on this weight. So it's not only informing childhood ob*sity policies for the government, but it then, yeah, kind of gives the weight feedback to the parents, putting the onus then on the parents to essentially, you know, try and do something about it according to the government. That's their priority.

Laura: Right, so it's kind of…it becomes like a personal responsibility thing, doesn't it, when, when they're getting that feedback. And then, my understanding is, yeah, that they, they justify it by, like, saying, well, we need to know how many children are of a higher weight so that we can then fund weight management services, or we can, you know, like, I don't know, some sort of vague notion of like future planning, future-proofing.

And I just, this idea has never really sat well with me, that in order to support people's health, we need to know how many children are above a higher weight. Because what we're saying, we're reinforcing that idea that weight and health are sort of inextricably linked, right? So we're saying that weight is health, and so what does that mean for children who are in smaller bodies who are equally, you know, might be at, you know more vulnerable to disease or because of, you know, other factors.

So yeah, it's just never really, like, sat well with me because it's, it's, it's, it's not weight inclusive, right? It's just….

Jennifer: Definitely. It infers that we can know somebody's, you know, their health status by knowing their weight. And, you know, personally, I sort of think it was the government showing that they're, they're trying to do something about this “childhood ob*sity epidemic”. I say that with quotation marks because I know that it's a stigmatising term, but it's them showing that they're doing something about it, but it's an extraordinarily expensive programme to run.

Laura: What are the numbers that you found?

Jennifer: So I didn't particularly look into that side of it, but I believe it costs, oh, I'm going to have to check this, but I think it's about £10 million to run.

Laura: It's double that.

Jennifer: Is it?

Laura: It's 20. Yeah, I wasn't trying to catch you out I was just curious if you… Because I when I wrote about it almost two years ago now, I did a Freedom of Information Request like to get the costing and it's £20 million to run the actual programme. This was a few years ago now. And then it was something like 250,000 just to like crunch the numbers and get like the data analysis.

Jennifer: So it's an extraordinarily, extraordinarily expensive programme to just get data that as far as we're concerned doesn't really say much about children's health, if anything.

Laura: Yeah.

Today's guest, nutritionist Jennifer Nash

Jennifer: And the NIHR, so the National Institute for Health Research has actually put out a call for a proposal for, for research looking into the impact of the NCMP in sort of a variety of ways.

But one of that was to sort of assess the cost effectiveness of it, 'cause clearly maybe there’s this idea that yeah, it's an expensive programme. Is it worth the money? You know, the figures. And the data aren't changing. So, you know, whatever the kind of follow up services that are being offered… aren't doing anything as far as what their priorities are.

Yes, it's just a very expensive programme. So is that the way that they should be spending their money? So I suppose that's, that's a good thing, that call for that research.

Laura: Yeah, they're, they're starting to question the sort of, yeah, purpose because it does, it does seem like it just a kind of like, As you said before, we need to do something.

So let's just, let's just collect information. We'll send these letters home to parents and get them to ‘do something about it’, in inverted commas. But all the letters say is: move more and eat less.

And I was actually, I was speaking to a parent recently who is a school governor, who was sort of saying like a lot of these kids who are getting letters classifying them as a higher weight, are eating home cooked meals, are like running around playing all day. And so it's just making so many like leaps in logic in terms of, you know, or assumptions I suppose in, in how people are living. And it just, yeah, again, it perpetrates this idea that if you're a higher body weight, you must be eating junk food all the time. You must just be like, sitting around watching TV all the time. Not that there's anything wrong with either of those things. But that's kind of, yeah, it's kind of propagating stereotypes.

I did want to ask you, Jennifer, this wasn't something that I'd really planned to ask you, but you, you just put the thought in my head when you mentioned that the data haven't really changed.

And I'm just wondering if you could, like explain what you mean by that a little bit more? What are the trends in the data showing and, and how is that being sort of explained, you know, again, from the kind of the government's perspective?

Jennifer: Again, I mean, this isn't my area of expertise, as in my research didn't particularly look at the results of the NCMP. More exploring kind of the emotional and impact and on kids’ wellbeing. But from what I understand, and you know, we read this in the media all the time. Yeah. Again, quote, “childhood ob*sity rates” are not changing. They are either increasing or plateauing or, you know, subtly decreasing. But I sort of take some of this data with a pinch of salt because particularly during COVID, this programme was paused and didn't run at full capacity.

So some of the figures that were, that were brought out for those years, it's largely 2020 and 2021 are figures that have been projected. Again, so, you know, I sort of feel like we have to take this with a bit of a pinch of salt, but essentially the programme isn't impacting those figures. It's not impacting children's weight in a dramatic sense.

There are so many other things that are impacting children's health. We can't attribute that the programme started in 2006 and it has drastically changed children's weight and bodies. I would argue it's changed other elements of kids’ health, which maybe, yeah, we'll go on to discuss.

Laura: Yeah. Well, no, I think that that was a, you teed that up beautifully Jennifer! Maybe you could just kind of tell us a little bit more about your research and what questions you were asking because it's more linked to the emotional side of things and the impact that programmes such as NCMP have on children's overall health and well being.

Jennifer: Yeah, so since the introduction of the NCMP there has been concerns on the impact that it's having on kids’ mental health and their emotional wellbeing. And some research has looked into that and then research largely focused on how parents received the weight feedback, what their response was to getting that feedback and whether they did anything about it as far as changing, you know, lifestyle and, and things like that.

But what I was really interested in was the research that has shown that the COVID pandemic has negatively impacted our kids’ mental wellbeing. So, you know, we've got evidence on that at the moment. And we've got evidence that shows that there is a higher rate of weight related stress amongst children at the moment.

So, kids are going on diets much younger. They are concerned about their bodies much younger. The rates of disordered eating are really increased at the moment and rates of eating disorders as well, particularly after the pandemic. So that's the kind of context. And then I thought, well, what are people saying in light of all of that about the NCMP? What are people's thoughts on the NCMP with that kind of background, I suppose?

So my research sort of considered that and considered the fact that the NCMP stopped during COVID and said, well, when it was reintroduced after COVID, What were the discussions that were being had around the NCP? What are people's experiences? What are their attitudes? And that's what I delved into in my dissertation.

Laura: So how did you go about asking those questions and then answering them as well?

Jennifer: Yeah, so I gathered data from online discussions online. And, you know, yeah, it was qualitative data. So gathering all these, these discussions and reading through them and exploring them and pulling out key themes and yeah, just trying to express what that data is saying and what, what essentially people are relaying about their experiences of the NCMP and their attitudes towards them.

Laura: When you're talking about online places, do you mean anywhere in particular? Or like, were there specific groups that you were looking at or forums or, yeah, how did you get people's opinions?

Jennifer: Yeah. So it was Facebook that I looked at through the years 20, 21, 22 and 23. So, Once the NCMP resumed, it resumed in September, 2021. So full capacity. And at that time there was quite a lot of media coverage around the program, around kind of the fact that kids' health had changed drastically during the pandemic that there was higher rates of childhood ob*sity because of lockdown.

And so it was quite a lot of media coverage. So it was that, that I kind of gathered the comments from those posts from either radio stations or TV networks that were posting about the NCMP and then there was discussions on those posts.

Laura: Right, so it wasn't like people just like writing, oh little Joey came home from school today with this letter.

It was like news outlets or like media outlets that were reporting on the reintroduction of the NCMP and then you were reading people's reactions to that.

Jennifer: Typically, yeah. Some, some posts were, you know, news outlets sort of trying to just say, what do you think about the NCMP? It wasn't necessarily like, oh, this is a reintroduction, ‘cause I suppose when we got to 2023, it'd been back in schools for a while, but there has been a lot more discussion in the media or in the public forums, about the NCMP.

So yeah, I wanted to delve into that a bit more. And there was interestingly, actually some very many people giving their own personal experiences of little Joey who came back from school and had been classified as overweight and they were outraged about this and that. So interestingly, there was quite a lot of those.Sort of anecdotes and historical experiences that were written about online.

So yeah, it was, it was quite a kind of mix of data, really, you know, short comments or long comments and, but people giving quite honest and personal opinions, which, you know, I think nowadays people are quite happy to share all of that online.

Laura: Yeah. Can you give us like a, kind of a flavour of some of the, like the types of comments that you would read or like what it would say?

Jennifer: So I kind of identified three, like, key themes within the data. The first and the kind of most dominating one was people being quite outraged about the program and believing that it, impacts our kids’ mental wellbeing and their emotional state.

So the main things that were coming up was kind of how it broke their self esteem, how they became much more aware of that body image that they hadn't had before. I kind of, I termed it like a 'body image awakening', how they would have the NCMP happen at school and then suddenly there was this awareness now of their bodies, their shapes, their sizes of each other's bodies as well.

So where there was talk of like weight related bullying, comments on appearance, and then sort of as far as the eating behaviours go, lots of discussion around how it impacted eating behaviours. So how kids were going on diets as young as five, banned Haribo in the house. I mean, there was one story about a kid who was five who…they were made to go on an exercise bike before school at home. And like sweets banned in the house. How disordered eating behaviours kind of came out amongst children.

And then, you know, the extreme side of that as well, the, how children had eating disorders and the parents then believed that it was initiated or at least contributed to by being weighed at school.

So that was the kind of the first theme and then also in the context of COVID, you know, people talking about, my child's mental state is already, you know, in the bin after lockdown. So this is just a really bad idea, kind of thing.

The second theme kind of connected, but was more about people's distrust in the programme. So either on the kind of data collection side or their understanding that BMI was not appropriate to use for children, or, BMI just in general is not a good measure of health. So interesting, quite interestingly, quite a lot of discussion around that around, you know, we shouldn't be classifying whether kids are healthy or not by their BMI, especially when children, you know, using BMI in children is quite a contested thing anyway. Simple things such as like the length of their leg will affect the calculations or not, or kind of, you know, a tiny little move on the scale will put you into one category or another category. Discussions around that.

And then the third theme, kind of, in a way, contrasting to those other opinions, but the idea that people were saying we do need to monitor children's health, and maybe weighing is a good idea.

That was quite a small section of the comments and even people who believed that the NCMP maybe was a good idea because we need to monitor children's health and weight. Even those people were saying we need to address this in a different way. They could see the harm that was maybe associated with it. And surely there are other ways that we can address childhood ob*sity if that is, if that needs to be addressed. Or just kids health in general.

Laura: Right so, I think what I'm hearing from you, it feels very almost obvious and intuitive to me that like, this programme is harmful. But that's not necessarily the message that the government is putting across in terms of like, the literature that they send out to…or, you know, the suggested wording that local authorities send out because they have to inform parents that they're going to do this.

You know, their verbiage is really along the lines of like, you know, we've looked at X, Y, and Z study and it shows that there's no impact of weighing children on, you know, their mental health and their wellbeing.

So how does your, this piece of research, I suppose, kind of fit into a broad, into the broader, you know, picture of research that's emerging around the NCMP? And do you see the government at any point being swayed by, you know, some of the more recent research that's come out?

Jennifer: Yeah, it's a tricky one. I mean, though, there has been quite a lot of research that I think quite obviously shows the harm that it's causing to children. I mean, sadly, I think that there's this understanding that in the, you know, “war on ob*sity”, again, I say that with quotation marks, there has to be, people think that there's going to be collateral damage and, you know, some people are going to suffer from this kind of, the things that they're doing. And typically those might be people in higher weight bodies.

And sadly then the government kind of ignores that and thinks, well, that's not an issue because our main goal is to make everyone smaller and have, you know, smaller weight bodies. And I, you know, obviously I don't agree with any of that at all, but interestingly, a lot of this research is showing that, you know, even people in “normal weight” bodies – again, in quotation marks – are suffering, you know, it's not just those in higher weights, it's the whole spectrum, everyone is suffering.

Maybe that will be a wake up call to the government because I suppose, you know, do they see the fact that kids of all weights are going on diets? Would that make them realise that that's, it's dangerous? Again, that, that's a, that shouldn't be the way it is. It should be that they understand that diets are dangerous for those in higher weight bodies as well.

But maybe, I don't know, maybe that'll be a wake up call for them. But there has been research that has gathered a lot of this evidence and said, you know, it's causing harm. The research that they refer to in the pre measurement letters that get sent out to parents before the NCMP is very old. It isn't, it doesn't address the things they say it addresses.

It just gathers kind of parents’ perspective. It doesn't gather children's lived experiences. So there's a need to actually address all of those things. If you're going to claim we've investigated it and it doesn't cause harm. And this proposed research from the NIHR does seek to investigate the emotional impact on children.

So, you know, maybe that's a sign that they are waking up to the fact that it is causing harm to children. And that it's causing more harm than good.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, it's just, it feels I don't know, like a little, well, it feels really depressing. Honestly, like with, you know, Avery starts, will have started school by the time this goes out.

And, you know, I'm, I'm already bracing myself to have these conversations with, with the school. And, you know, I'm, I will obviously opt him out and I will try and influence other people to opt him out, but it just seems like, you know, like going in to have these conversations with the school to actually try and effect change for the children whose parents won't be opting them out either, because they're just, you know, so deeply invested in the ‘weight is health’ rhetoric, or because they just, you know, they don't have the capacity to think about this because they've got so much else on their plate, or both.

It just feels like such a kind of losing battle. I don't know, have you had the conversation with your schools? How, how has it played out for you with your family?

Jennifer: Yeah, so I mean, I have opted, so my middle and my eldest have both been through reception. And I've opted both of them out and posted on the parents' WhatsApp group to say, look, this is coming up, you know, actually Body Happy have this amazing resource that you can share.

And I, that's the thing I shared rather than saying, I don't think you should have your kid do this. It's much easier to share a resource and say here, make an informed decision for yourself. And it's got all the information in there.

So I think the easiest thing to do is to share that and try and just help people become informed about it. 'Cause I think it's, once you know all the stuff that's in that pack, for example, it's quite hard to see that the programme is a good thing when you read about the research and stuff.

Yeah, again, sharing it with teachers and headteachers and some are receptive to it and some aren't. I think it depends how stuck in, like you say, how stuck in the ‘weight equals health’ paradigm. So yeah, it is a tricky one. And sometimes you feel like you're just a very small kind of influence in this big, big thing, but I suppose every little helps.

And I mean, ultimately, I think if we can get more research into the fact that this is causing harm, then maybe that together can help public health teams, yeah, reassess the whole thing.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. You know, the conversation that I believe I had with Molly, although I've been having lots of NCMP chats lately, so it might be all getting blurred in my head, but you know, I know a big piece of this is that school nursing funding is often tied to the NCMP and so it really feels as though we need to use that money to fund school nursing in a way that is actually supportive of kids health and of like the nurses themselves.

I'm sure they don't really, like, I know it's often healthcare assistants that are doing the actual weighing and measuring, maybe just overseen by a school nurse, but yeah, like, we have a team of like professionals dedicated to children's health and wellbeing, and I just feel, it just feels like they're massively underutilised, like they could be an amazing resource.

And I know that Labour have pledged to put money towards, like mental health nurses in schools, which I think would be such a great use of that money compared to just weighing them in school, which is, if anything, going to make their mental health worse, way worse.

So it's a tricky issue. I think, you know, I think when I first started thinking about the NCMP, I was like, Oh yeah, we'll just like get all the schools to opt out and it will be great. And it'll just go away. And it's not. It's, it's much more complicated than that.

Jennifer: Mm, yeah, definitely. And I think the thing that is kind of one of the most heartbreaking things about it is the weighing the kids in year six before they go to secondary school. Like, it's such a difficult time for these children anyway.

You know, there's so much in society nowadays that they're struggling with. To then introduce this whole, you know, what do you weigh? You know, where are you sitting on the BMI chart? That whole idea that health is your own responsibility, that weight is your own responsibility as an 11 year old. You know, it's not your responsibility as an 11 year old to control your body.

That, you know, that's ridiculous. And also the fact that they are at varying stages of puberty. You know, it's just, it's such a challenging time. So, and you know, a lot of the kind of comments that I was gathered for the, for the research, that was a big thing, you know, leave my kids alone.

One of the themes I titled, like, 'let kids be kids'. That was so much of what people were saying. Let these kids be kids. Yes, we value their health. And whether that's physical health, mental health, you know, of course we value that, but that's, that's the main reason why people are objecting to this and standing up about it because they value their health so much.

It's not because we don't value kids’ health. It's because we value it so much. And I think that's the shift in the thinking. You know, getting rid of this program doesn't mean we're, we're not caring about kids health. It means that we care more.

Laura: Yeah. And I think that that's such an important message to communicate because I think there is this, yeah, misguided idea or notion that, you know, not weighing kids means that we're giving up on their health or their, yeah, their well being and, and that's just, as you say, the complete opposite of, of what we're trying to do.

And I think that's a really tricky thing to get people to wrap their heads around if they're really invested in the weight normative paradigm.

Get bonus monthly pods by becoming a paid subscriber

Let's switch things up and talk about something which I think feels a little more hopeful, which is a piece of work that you've been involved in with Body Happy Org, which I believe you did as part of your, one of your placements for your Masters, where you were creating a scheme of work for Key Stage 1 around positive nutrition.

Is that like a good summary?

Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, as part of the Masters, I was working with Molly and we decided to, yeah, focus my energies on creating the Scheme of Works. It was for Key Stage 1 and 2 in the end. And it was kind of born out of this passion from both of us for a different approach to nutrition education in school which you've written a lot about.

But you know, Molly particularly was saying during her workshop, so they go into schools and do workshops with kids on body image and promoting positive body image, so much was coming up around food. Diet, “healthy eating”, again, I say that with quotes “healthy eating”, nutrition. And I think, you know, she was getting to the stage where I was like, the stuff that is being taught in schools around food and nutrition is not supporting that whole aim of, let's promote positive body image and good wellbeing within schools.

It was actually undermining it and doing the opposite. So typical nutrition education that you might see in schools could be something like, I mean, depending on what year they're in, but it could be counting out how many sugar cubes are in a certain food and then working out how many minutes of exercise you might have to do to burn off those sugar cubes.

Laura: And you see that in as young as Key Stage 1, which is like…?

Jennifer: Yeah, or maybe Key Stage 2. I mean, I'm not a teacher. I don't know masses about the different stages of learning and stuff, but yeah, I mean, very young they would be doing food sorting into kind of, unhealthy/healthy. You know, how can you cut out sugar this week? Or even doing food diaries and stuff.

Laura: Unbelievable.

Jennifer: Stuff that we know is really damaging practices and can contribute towards disordered eating.

Laura: And also just not developmentally appropriate, right? Like they're still really concrete thinkers in Key Stage 1 and 2. It's not until Key Stage three when they're like 12 and above, right? That they start to be able to get the shades of grey a little bit more.

And even then, it's not like they turn 12 and suddenly they can think abstractly about things. That's a process. So, yeah, the fact that we're, you know, teaching kids how many cubes of sugar are in certain things when they, like, they don't really, they can't comprehend how many cubes of sugar they need, or what foods have sugar in them, or like what sugar even is really, like, it's just so…

Jennifer: Yeah, one of the things that Molly and I were talking about is the fact that even as adults, we struggle to understand all this nutrition stuff. Even as nutritionists, we struggle to put things in boxes and put it, make it black and white. It's not black and white. There are so many nuances and even health professionals disagree on what nutrition should be and what health is and all this stuff. So, it's completely inappropriate to be, you know, saying some of this stuff to, you know, five year olds, six year olds, seven year olds.

So yeah, that was our kind of frustration. And then we thought, well, in response to that, let's create a scheme of work that is, we've titled it food positive, healthy eating scheme of work that not only, yeah, has a food positive stance that doesn't demonise food, that doesn't teach all these kind of unnecessary things that is so beyond their comprehension at that stage, but it also introduces all these other elements of food and nutrition education that are being completely missed.

Body Happy Org's food-positive scheme of work for key stage 1

Laura: Like what?

Jennifer: So things like…one of our lesson plans is called ingredients and build a meal. So do kids know how to make a meal? Like, do they know? That's a more important thing to teach a six year old than how many sugar cubes is in a can of Coke?

Do they know what's in their spaghetti bolognese? We sort of did like an equation, you know, spaghetti plus tomato sauce, plus some onions plus meat equals spaghetti bolognese, you know?

Laura: Mm hmm. So how they like break down the components that are in it. Yeah, and like that visual even is, is like a really like concrete thing that they can, yeah, they can, they can work with that, right?

As opposed to some sort of, like, more abstract concept.

Jennifer: Yeah. We also did things like kind of focus on mindful eating or intuitive eating that many kids at that stage have a really great sense of intuitive eating. So there's one, like a hungry body activity where you, there's a picture of a hungry body and the kids are talking about how they feel when they're hungry, you know, what does that…trying to be really like a sense of embodiment and sense of self at that age and what does it feel like, you know, when do you know you're thirsty? When do you know you're hungry? What does it feel like when you've eaten? And, you know, that's, you've dealt with that kind of feeling.

So trying to kind of promote that, but also other stuff like…we mentioned things like food insecurity and how not everybody has a choice on what they eat.

On the other hand, people make lots of different choices about what they eat, whether that's cultural preference likes or dislikes, which is very important, you know, religious reasons, ethics, just introducing all of that, which, in my opinion, is much more important for a six year old to know and affects the way that they interact with their peers and the way they treat people versus being told that too much sugar is going to make them sick, which they take very literally and worry all day that they're going to throw up or be ill because they've had one chocolate bar and actually just causes them to look very internally and worrying and increase body anxiety, all that stuff.

You know, let's get the focus more outwards about how they treat their peers and community and what they're like as a human really.

Laura: like as you're saying. it's, like, it sounds so…again, intuitive and clear and all kind of obvious in a lot of ways, but it is just so counter how we go about teaching nutrition currently…like, so I'm curious like, whathappens next now you've created this scheme of work.

What's your ambition? You know, you being like Body Happy Org and Molly and everyone there. Like, what's the ambition with this? How, where do we go from here?

Jennifer: Well, hopefully teachers use the resource, the resource in their schools. They realise that children respond really well to it. We did pilot the the scheme of work in a school and got some really great feedback of children saying how, you know, they loved lessons where they could talk about food and the teachers saying that it was a really good opportunity to talk about differences in the class in the pupils and the way people ate, or even opportunities to talk to certain children about maybe some of the issues that they have around food and eating.

You know, so hopefully teachers use this, they see the positives that come out of it and they see that it supports all the other stuff they're doing maybe on promoting good, mental wellbeing amongst children rather than undermining it. That's the dream really, isn't it, that a school has a holistic approach to health and wellbeing and everything that they're doing is working towards the same goal and supporting their children to be the healthiest they can be and that's mental, emotional and physical health.

Laura: Is there a training that accompanies it or is it literally they can just like…a plug and play like here are all the resources and lesson plans that a teacher would need and they can just run with it or is there like anything else?

Jennifer: Yeah, at the moment it's, you buy the lesson plans and it's got the overview and the kind of evidence behind the approach and the rationale.

Then the lesson plans and the worksheets and the PowerPoints. So it's all, you know, one package at the moment. And then Body Happy obviously do kind of CPD training for teachers, which even though it's a body image training, it does cover things like how to talk about diet and health and bodies with kids. So, yeah.

Laura: Like you as a parent wanted to get your kids’ schools to adopt this in Key Stage 1 and Key Stage 2. How would you go about having that conversation with the school? Like, would you go to the administration? Would you go to the classroom teacher? Like, how would you broach that?

Jennifer: I mean, I think you can go to anyone and it's kind of…go to the person who you think is going to be most receptive or most proactive in trying to get it in.

Laura: Who's going to champion it for you.

Jennifer: Yes. Body Happy do have, you know, kind of one page sheets that you can print off and give to your, the teacher or the head teacher that kind of says a bit about, you know, what they are, their approach and why they do the things they do. So they have quite a lot of resources that you can kind of take in.

Not overwhelming amount of information for, for staff, but, you know, it's also about conversations, isn't it? And kind of, yeah, I had a conversation with my daughter's teachers doing one of their parents’ evening, you know, I was, we'd done the parents’ evening. I was just sort of halfway out the door and then I quickly turned and I said, Oh, by the way, we've got this scheme of work and just sort of threw it at them, which, you know, I don't know how much they're going to remember that when they come to plan their healthy eating lessons, but it's it's just informing them that it's out there.

And teachers, you know teachers are doing such an amazing job and they're so busy and they're so kind of overworked that it's you know We can't expect them to have all this top free time to be looking into all of this so actually having a resource that's, it's all done already that we can just make them aware of and say, look, this is all done.

Can you try and find a time in your, in your busy teaching schedule to try and fit this in? And these are like 30-minute lessons. Yeah.

Laura: Yeah. And, and, and I guess that was the, the rationale behind my question earlier was just like, teachers are so overloaded and there are so many things and I'm sure there are parents coming at them from all different directions being like, do this, do that.

And there's like, you know, maybe even conflicting things coming from parents. There's probably some parents who are like, push the like healthy eating agenda, you know? And then there's people like us being like, can you just tone it down a bit? So I really, really feel for, for teachers.

And that's why I suppose I was wondering like your opinion on, I guess it's more, as I'm thinking out loud here, changing the whole school approach to…rather than putting the onus on individual teachers, I mean, in an ideal situation, right? Like changing, changing the culture in the school so that, you know, positive nutrition and embodiment are are the sort of default ways that we talk about food and bodies. But yeah, again, another sort of like highly romanticised notion of….yeah.

Jennifer: But that's why Body Happy are doing such amazing work, aren't they? And going into schools and not only doing sessions with the students, but then doing CPD stuff with staff and helping them to, you know, kind of untangle themselves from diet culture. And it's, you know, it can feel like an uphill battle and all this stuff, basically fighting diet culture is a, is a hard thing, isn't it? But chipping away at it.

And, you know, and there are some schools who will adopt all of the Body Happy kind of ethos and, and ideas. And hopefully then that will result in culture change. So, so you just have to stay positive about it all.

Laura: Yeah. Well, I really appreciate all the work that you've done to try and like, move the, the, the needle a little bit and just, yeah, shift the conversation.

I think it will be such an amazing resource and I'm definitely going to send it to my school. So yeah, thank you, Jennifer.

Shall we tell the listeners what we've been snacking on lately? So at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something…a recommendation, it can be a book, a podcast, a literal snack, whatever takes your fancy.

So yeah, what do you have for us today?

Jennifer: Hmm, and I sort of caveat this because I worry it's a bit of a boring nutritionist answer. But I will explain. So my snack is vegetables from the garden, particularly beetroot. The story behind this is that we grow some vegetables in our garden and by we, I mean my husband who is our head gardener. I can't take any credit really for it. But, and one of the vegetables he's been growing is beetroot which…I don't like beetroot and I don't eat beetroot but the other day you know he picked some beetroot from the garden and we sliced it up and we sat down and snacked on it and it was okay. I mean I think raw it tasted a little bit like a radish which I don't mind a radish but it got me thinking about you know we've been talking about kind of the way we talk to children about food and the way we teach kids about food.

And I thought, here I am in my thirties and I'm still learning to try new foods. And the way that that has happened in my household was by growing it. And that's something we can do with kids and something that we can. Another way we can think about how we approach food education or nutrition education, you know, there's so much more to it than counting sugar cubes.

And, you know, I'm trying to learn to like beetroot. So if you have any good beetroot recipes send them my way, because it's one of those ones I still struggle with. But yeah, yeah, who knows, we might have more of a glut of it, so I'll keep trying.

Laura: I really love pickled beetroot, like sliced in a sandwich, but my, my neighbour in our community garden is also growing beetroot.

I don't have any in my plot, but he, and he's been, he's Polish and he, he makes zupa, which I think is, like, the Polish word for soup. Yeah, he's been, he's been harvesting them and blitzing them up with, I don't know what, but I could, I'll try and source the recipe for you because he just keeps on going on about this bloody soup that he's been making.

Jennifer: It's a very pretty vegetable and I know lots of people who love it, but it's just been one of my ones that I haven't got into. But maybe in time, we'll see.

Laura: I endorse the, the pickled route. But, yeah we sometimes like, like marinate it as well to go in a sandwich, like, and then kind of like fry it off, which is really nice too.

But yeah, it is a tricky one, and, and, but I do appreciate your point around getting kids involved in the garden where you can, and I think this is some, something that a lot of schools are doing really well, is, is like community gardens sorry, school gardens, and getting the kids involved in growing and picking, I know even at Avery's school they were like picking some strawberries or something earlier this year, so.

Yeah, it is like another one if we could just, like, leave the diet culture stuff out of it and just focus on growing vegetables. It's really great.

So, my thing, we are at the time of recording experiencing a little heat wave. And so, I haven't been able to stop thinking about getting an affogato from Climpson and Sons. So this is, I appreciate this is a very niche East London thing. So if you're not out of East London, I'm sorry, but maybe you could like make something similar yourself at home.

But they do, like, a shot of espresso with a scoop of coconut Hackney Gelato in it. And it's just, like, you wouldn't think that coconut and coffee, I don't know, it sounds like it shouldn't really work, but it is incredible. So that's gonna be my, like, snack this afternoon, my little pick me up, to get, get to the finish line of end of term, get to the school holidays.

Jennifer, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming and explaining your research and the work that you've been doing with Body Happy Org. I'm going to have to, like, dream up some interesting projects for you to help me with on CIHAS as well to put all your like knowledge and expertise to use.

But I'm really glad that you could come and share a bit more on the podcast. So for anyone who wants to find out a bit more about you, how can they find you on the internet?

Jennifer: And thank you for having me. I will say that. So I'm on Instagram, @JenniferNashNutrition, and my website is jnnutrition.com

Laura: Thank you so much, Jennifer.

Thanks for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. It really helps us out. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.

It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks, you make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to canihaveanothersnack.com/membership to learn more and sign up today

Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Jennifer Nash is our newsletter assistant and makes sure your posts get delivered on time each week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse.

Thank you for listening to the podcast, and if you can't wait for the next episode to drop, remember you can get posts, essays and community threads delivered every week by signing up for free at canihaveanother snack.com. See you over there.