Our very first guest is artist Laxmi Hussain whose stunning work depicts the softness of bodies and the tenderness of early motherhood. We talk about her postpartum experience, and how, even as a mother of three, her instincts were undermined and gaslit. We talk about how new mothers (especially pandemic mums) are repeatedly let down and dismissed. Laxmi shares her experiences of sharing her studio with a toddler and how he has become part of her process. We then go on to discuss her family’s food culture and her own relationship to food and appetite. Lastly, we consider all the ways that our kids are told there is something fundamentally wrong with them, and how we as parents can give them the tools to develop resilience to these messages.
Find out more about Laxmi here
Follow her work on Instagram here
Buy her art here (and buy one for me while you’re at it!)
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Here’s the transcript in full.
Laxmi Hussain
I hope that's the same message my children will understand. And not just for my daughter, but for my sons, too, that women's bodies aren't a particular shape or size or height, or, you know, they're so different. And I want them to know that that's normal. Because it has to, we have to feel that way. Like, I know that I probably won't change it hugely in my lifetime. But if I can change it for them, then I think that's a big deal. And hopefully, that will carry on forward.
Laura Thomas
Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet Registered Nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. My very first guest is artist Laxmi Hussain. Laxmi has been drawing for as long as she can remember, as a child in London, she would lose hours after school, sketching on the counter in her dad's corner shop. But it's only since the birth of her first child that Laxmi has turned her passion into a profession. Reinspired by the irrepressible joy and creativity shown by her children, she picked up the pencil once again, finding artwork to be a valuable means of reclaiming her own identity amid the emotional learnings of motherhood. Her inspiration comes from the forms encountered in everyday life -- from the body, the tenderness of motherhood, the natural shapes of the body as a vessel, and its evolution throughout life. Working in several different media, usually at night, Laxmi is driven by experimentation, constantly exploring new techniques, and searching for the shapes and subjects they express best. I was so thrilled that Laxmi agreed to be on the podcast. Her depictions of early motherhood and bodies stuck together have felt so validating for me personally as I navigate the relationship with my body postpartum. They offer relief from the idealised images we see of postpartum bodies, while still being so tender and beautiful. I love everything that Laxmi has to say in this episode, from just how unapologetically she loves being with her kids, to learning about her family's food cultures and her passion for food. Through our conversations about how pregnant and postpartum people are gaslit and dismissed at every turn, to how we can prepare our kids for a world that teaches them their bodies are wrong, and that they don't belong. I think you're gonna really love this conversation. Before we get to Laxmi, I just wanted to let you know that you're listening to the long edit of this episode. And from October, I'll be publishing a shorter edit here in your podcast player, and a special long edit for paid subscribers as a little bonus for supporting my work. Alongside weekly discussion threads, my dear Laura column, and loads of other fun perks, you can head to laurathomas.substack.com to subscribe, it's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that is inaccessible to you, for any reason, please just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk for a comp subscription. Before we get to Laxmi, I have a quick favour to ask you. If you enjoy this episode, I would really appreciate it if you could support me by rating and reviewing in your podcast player, and maybe even sharing with a friend. It makes a huge difference to a new podcast. You can find a full transcript of this episode over on substack again at laurathomas.substack.com. And I would really love it if you wanted to leave a comment over there to let us know what you thought of this conversation and to keep the conversation going. I'll also put some pictures of Laxmi's incredible art in there so you can take a look at how stunning it is. Oh, and if you are listening to this in the Don't Salt My Game feed, then please don't forget to hop over and subscribe in the Can I Have Another Snack? feed. Okay, here's my conversation with Laxmi
Laura Thomas
So Laxmi, we start each conversation with the same question, which is, who or what are you nourishing right now?
Laxmi Hussain
I am nourishing, actually, you know what, this summer I nourish myself and I also nourish my family. But in general, even though the kids are on summer holidays, it's more about me resetting, taking a break and taking stock of what I've been doing. The summer is generally slower for me workwise and so I try to fill my cup.
Laura Thomas
So you're kind of taking a beat from the artist world, artist life and stepping back into mum life.
Laxmi Hussain
Yeah and life and you know, I think I've inherited this from my mom. But I love my children and I love being with my family so much that just being with them and doing things that make them happy and you know, just being in that space with them. It's what makes my summer. And I really love it. And I consciously try not to work during the summer, I know it is a long break and not many people, it's quite a privileged thing to say that I can take six weeks off. But I do pop in and nourish my, my plant babies, I've got forest here. But I try to step away. And even though I'm physically not working, my mind never stops. So I do think it is a good time to, it's very useful for me, because then I come back in September, and I feel reinvigorated. I have new energy. And all those ideas have not stopped working in my brain, and I do write things down or sketch things down in a notebook. But I feel without it, my cycle wouldn't, wouldn't quite work.
Laura Thomas
So it's kind of, I hear what you're saying, that like, you have this creative mind. So you can never fully stop, you can't turn that off. But it sounds as though there's something in the kind of like stepping back and just being fully immersed with your kids that almost allows you to take that step forward again in September when the kind of, I sometimes think of September as like a new year. Instead of like January, it's like this reset moment in the year, isn't it?
Laxmi Hussain
Absolutely. And January, for me, is usually one of my busiest times, because it's sort of, people are starting new projects, people feel reinvigorated then, but then they approach people then so I'm so busy that I forget that it's a new year. And all of my new year feels like September. I've never really thought about that before. But also, maybe it's also from a vain perspective, but my birthday's right in the beginning of September. I feel like it's a new year, new me as well. And it starts with the celebrations.
Laura Thomas
That Virgo season energy I hear you. I'm a Leo Virgo cusp. So I feel you on that. I was really struck by what you said, which shouldn't at all be radical, but it kind of feels a little subversive, which is that you enjoy being with your children. And I'm just, there's such, and I get it right like I get it being a parent being a mother is fucking hard. And it's relentless. And especially with the like the lack of social support, the lack of infrastructure, the lack of childcare, like all of those things. And at the same time to just hear someone sort of unapologetically say, I enjoy nourishing my kids and spending time with them. And it kind of made my mind go straight to the title of your newest, I think it's your latest at least art drop because, is that the right art world lingo, I'm out of my depth here, but it's called like ‘Glue’, right?
Laxmi Hussain
A couple of the pieces are but the actual collections called ‘Inseparable’.
Laura Thomas
Oh, wow even more like poignant.
Laxmi Hussain
Basically what it is, is it's an ode to the last two years of my life. It's just over two years now, because my youngest, Eden, was born in June. And I've had two different challenges from well, several different challenges. But the two that stand out the most since one, my mother died and two, when when my other children were younger, we were in different locations in London, we just seemed to have more hands. But my mom was the biggest hand in raising my older children and, and also my dad, actually, but now my dad has deteriorated due to Parkinson's, so that he hasn't been able to help us with childcare for at least three, four years. So that had a massive impact on our sort of our parenthood functioning and also we had COVID which meant that you know, even if someone wanted to help, they couldn't. So Eden has literally spent almost every day every working day in the studio with me unless I've had something where it really cannot have him around. And you know, I've been able to in the last six months to have help from family friends, but my mum would do the school pickup she would, especially when my daughter was in and out of nursery, because that's kind of, you know, when they start with half days and that kind of thing. And I was working a full time job at the time. So it was much harder for me to just pick up and leave, because you've got an employer to answer to. And, you know, my previous job, they were amazing, but you just can't, whereas now I can just, you know, I work around the school runs and all of that, but literally, Eden is here every day, and I wouldn't have been able to do that do the last child without, without this flexibility. And that's what this collection is about, like, he has been stuck to me for so long. And, you know, sometimes we love each other, sometimes we are throwing tantrums. And he's not the only one throwing tantrums. And, you know, I've just had to adapt to that kind of, I've got maybe an hour some days, sometimes I have four, you know, it's something that I've adapted to, but for some reason, I'm really good at it. And I love him being here. And I'm really a bit anxious or sad about him shortly going to nursery and leaving me. Because I wonder if he is also part of the reason that I paint the way that I do? And how will my mind change? How will my thoughts change? So in a way, he's nourished my entire process over the last couple of years.
Laura Thomas
And so just for context, because people can't see you, but you're, you're in your studio right now, as we're speaking. And so what you're saying is that your baby and toddler have been coming to literally to your art studio with you every day, and you've been making literally making art with, like, I can't even wash the dishes with my toddler around, like, I can't even piss without my toddler attached to my leg. I'm not joking.
Laxmi Hussain
I mean, you know what, it's made us so, I didn't have this much closeness with the other two, because from birth, they got used to being separated from me. You know, even if it was an hour or half a day, or my mom was always there, you know, I remember when Zayn was born, Zayn is my eldest. And I had the baby blues at the two week point, which I think is quite a normal peak trough. And I was looking at him and sobbing my eyes out. And I didn't know why. And I called my mom. And she was there in like, 15 minutes. So she was like, just give me the baby, you're crying all over him.
Laura Thomas
Because that's the issue. You're making the baby wet.
Laxmi Hussain
I just missed that. But you know, I don't, I don't have that this time around. So in some crazy way, I've made it work. And I'm so grateful for it. But also, it has been hard.
Laura Thomas
I'm just hearing such a like, there's like there's a tension or a conflict or something that like, there's something about this particular baby, because of the pandemic and because of the loss of your mum, that, you know, it's been harder in a lot of ways. But then there's this closeness, this bond that has this sort of this, I don't wanna say silver lining, but you know what I mean, like, an unexpected kind of gift that you have, and I just, this is where I'm gonna cry. But I just, I feel, and this is not at all why you need to make your art for me to feel validated and seen, but I feel so seen in those pieces in particular that you were talking about, in terms of, because we have, we have very little support, we've had very little support throughout the pandemic. And my toddler didn't start nursery until he was a bit older. And even then it was like, you know, the part time thing and, and he was, he's a very attached baby, very attached, and there's just something about seeing your work that just felt like holding a mirror up to our experiences and just like, you know, him literally physically being constantly attached to me, to my boob. And we've just gone through, I kind of felt like that was easing off. But then we've just had a spate of, what's it called, gastroenteritis, and he has, again, been attached to me. Like a newborn. I forgot how relentless it was. But yeah, there's just, I don't know, I wonder if you could speak a bit more to just like, being a body and having, you know, having to give so much of yourself to another body, another person, another, you know, your child.
Laxmi Hussain
I think the only way I can describe this is when I started painting, including Eden in my work, my agent, Georgia Spray who represents me as part of Partnership Editions, she said that she was looking at the paintings, she was like, they're so beautiful, it's like the babies are a jigsaw piece of yourself. And when you paint them together, it's like they fit together. And that's what I'm trying to depict is I've never, not that I've never seen, but it's just I don't see, very often, artwork depicting motherhood in a realistic way, in ways that it's awkward, it's beautiful. It's glued together all the time. And, you know, my baby was born in summer, that's like hot, sticky, sweaty, stuck to your clammy body. And it's so like, I say, I don't swear, but it's so fucking hard. But it's also so incredible that you can do this. And if you are able to do this, and you, you know, mentally and physically, you like to do it. It's just, wow, we are incredible people. Like, I'm not just talking like motherhood, yes, is very, very hard. But also, there are incredible other parents out there who do the same, and know what it's like to struggle in this way. And still really, really love it like, and that's why I'm unapologetic about the fact that I just really, really love my kids, they are everything to me. And you know, sometimes my friends don't hear from me, but it's because I'm with my kids. And no one is ever going to stand in front of them, because they're incredible beings. And they have so, now my older kids are there, they, you know, their minds just want to, they're like mops, like sponges, they want, they ask all the most ridiculous questions. And sometimes I'm like "ahh", but I don't think my mind has been this stimulated by all of the things that are going on all the time in my crazy household and been so in love.
Laura Thomas
That's, I mean, there's, I was just thinking about this, this narrative that is so prominent, and I think it's because it is true, or it can be true, from the perspective that oftentimes, women literally pay for having children, they get made redundant, they don't get promoted, they you know, all of the things, right? There's this real narrative that having a child, yeah, is a career killer. And there are you know, there's a reality to that, you know, having to put your career on hold for maternity leave. And all of the other things, you know, the gender pay gap, and on, all of the things. And what I've heard you say is that becoming a mother becoming a parent was kind of a turning point for you and your creativity. And this is not something you've said in this interview. Yeah, I heard you say that it's when you really started doing art more, right?
Laxmi Hussain
Yeah, but I agree with you, all of those things are very, very true. And I have ticked every single one of those boxes, redundancy, gender pay gaps, not being promoted the career that I thought that I wanted, or that I thought that I had before I had my children all stopped. You know, it never grew anymore when I had them. And then I found jobs that weren't as fulfilling and I always felt like if I just didn't have kids, maybe I would have gotten so much further but you know, I don't know that. And I don't know if that would have led me to where I am today. But I started drawing again, because I loved drawing with my eldest. And then I started to remember how much I loved drawing and painting. And I've done it my entire life. Like since I was so tiny. And I just never really thought it was a job, or, you know, a career. And it was only until I had them that I felt brave enough that I've done the most, the hardest thing I ever feel is I'm ever going to have to do apart from, you know, watching my mum die, that if I can do that, and I'm still here, and I'm still doing it, and I'm still living and breathing, then why can't I be an artist which comes so naturally to me, I should just be able to do that without having to worry about all of the other things. But the thing is, what I found really hard. And what I feel there's no infrastructure for is if you choose to then go and get your job or your career for yourself, and you have kids, it's so hard. I've worked two jobs, sometimes three jobs around the clock, just so that I could start to believe that this dream that I had, could become my full time. And it took me six years with it as a passion project, to then have my third child and be like I've worked through, I went back to work when he was like two months old. And I was bringing him to the studio when he was three months old. And you know, I would work and then every half an hour I was breastfeeding him and then I put them in the Moses basket. And then I would work for five minutes and then start the whole thing again. And there is no support for that. Like, why is there no support if I choose to go and get my career for myself? Why, you know, unless I am going back to work full time, after two weeks of having my baby, which I know some people have to do. Why do we have to do that? Like it took my body. My body is still recovering. And it's over two years. And I don't understand why it's so difficult. There's no finances, there's no childcare. I still can't get childcare because technically, I'm not entitled to it. And I'm not even earning. Like, I want to say that I'm doing really well. But I'm not earning enough to afford childcare and everything that we need as a family.
Laura Thomas
Yeah hard. Same. And, you know, even if you're freelance, what is it like less than 600 pounds a month, I think for like statutory, it's like, it's laughable how low money.
Laxmi Hussain
And then when we get to like, when it's past the six month point, it's something like it's even less isn't it? I was like, did I get paid this month?
Laura Thomas
Yeah, all of the like, I mean, yeah. We could probably go down a real political rabbit hole in terms of like the infrastructure and what's all the things that women in particular have to sacrifice that is probably just not even, you know, registering on the radar for most men who do whatever the fuck they like. But so just bringing it back to..oh there's so many like, like delicious little offshoots that I want to, to go down with you. Let's talk a little bit about bodies because that is the main focus of your work. And again, a quote that I heard you say once was that you wanted other people to see their bodies as I see mine. I don't know if you remember saying that but you did. And then, and something else that you said was that after having a baby you don't have time to catch up with your body?
Laxmi Hussain
You don't. You really don't. Like things are going at lightning speed. I felt like one minute the baby is like you know, can fit in the palm of your hand and the next minute they're like so huge. But also I feel like the first few months as well, your body is not really yours. It's you know, especially if you're breastfeeding as well. You're giving everything to nourish your baby. And also, I don't know if this is just because I've heard so many people say the same thing, but I'm not even, having had Eden at this age is not particularly young, but in our society now because women are having children much later, I was treated as a very young mother. And perhaps also because I've got a bit of a baby face. A lot of the healthcare professionals treated me as if I was a first time mother, they just assumed that I was a first time mother. And even if I would say, Look, this is my third, they didn't seem to believe me. And I was constantly saying, Look, this is normal. Like there was a lot of stress at the beginning of his birth, because he was very, very small. He was in the ninth percentile, but he was born 13 days late. So it's 41 weeks and six days, but obviously most babies are, gestation is 40 weeks. And because he was so small, his birth weight was seven pounds, but for his gestation that put him in the ninth percentile. And then obviously, this is quite common in breastfeeding babies, that they lose at least 10%. He happened to lose 11%. And everyone just went into meltdown, I was sent to A&E. And all of this crazy, crazy stuff, they were stressing me out beyond belief, like you're not feeding him enough, you need to pump around the clock and give him the extra pump and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I literally spent the first two weeks just crying my eyes out, because everyone was telling me I wasn't doing a great job. And I've always had a lot of milk, I'm very fortunate to have had quite a lot of milk and he didn't look malnourished, he was feeding well. And I just thought he was fine. And my instincts were telling me everything's fine. And nobody believed me. And so it took me much longer to recover from that, like he, the trauma of that was quite, it was quite a lot. I'm a very laid back person. But when everyone was telling me that I was wrong, and I was telling everyone that I feel he's fine. And nobody believed me. It just felt so much more difficult. And everyone was like, you're not a third time mom, I was like, yes, I am -- those are my other children!
Laura Thomas
I'm so sorry to hear that this was your experience. But I am not at all surprised that it was, you know, working in this field and understanding, you know, the sort of rationale behind what the professionals were thinking. But also you know, like very much kind of hearing what you're saying, as a mother, like, you were like, I can see my baby, I can see that they're doing well. I can tell that they're drinking. And this is my, you know, why is no one trusting my instincts? Why am I being gaslit? Left, right and centre. And I hear it so often from parents that I've worked with where this has been, you know, this is something that has happened early on, in their feeding experiences where they've been told to pump or where they've been told to give top up feeds with formula or, you know, all of the things. I've even heard people being told that they need to wean their babies early, all of these things that cause so much stress and so much anxiety. And really, what I'm hearing you say is that, that that really prolonged that healing process for you. That that really kind of like, that trauma was in you. And, you know, continued way beyond the point that you know, it might not have otherwise. And I was also thinking that, you know, if this wasn't your third baby, if this is your first child and this was happening, and you hadn't had that, all those experiences to draw on, then what? You know?
Laxmi Hussain
I mean, there are so many things we don't talk about that happened to our bodies post birth, that I've only learned through having children, but nobody told me these things like nobody shared this. And even when my sister in law was having her first baby, she was like, Is this normal? Is that normal? No one's told me this and I was just like, rather than, you know, share only the niceties and hide all of the stuff that nobody wants to talk about. I was like this happened to me. And this happened to me. And you know, there were things like with the first birth I tore and for weeks, I couldn't squat. And nobody says stuff like this like. You know, because I chose to breastfeed all three of my kids. And I persevered. I had bleeding nipples. I had, I was leaking all the time. And nobody ever says this. Like you know, when your boobs turn rock hard. Literally like, I don't know, it's like concrete.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. I remember.
Laxmi Hussain
The first time that happened to me, I was like "what?". What is going on? I thought I was going to, I thought something had happened. And I panicked. Nobody ever told me that this happens.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah. I think because everything around birth and motherhood, especially, like, in parenthood, especially in those early days is so hidden, it's so concealed. Like, you were saying, like, you know, we see the cute baby all bundled up, but then you don't see the mother bleeding for at least six weeks afterwards. And then they're telling you Okay, well, six weeks, you can start exercising again, or having sex or whatever it is. And you're like, what I'm bleeding?
Laxmi Hussain
Yeah, the whole thing around sex. And it's like, now you can have sex. And I was just like, I know, for you it was six weeks ago, but for me, it was like two seconds ago. There is nothing happening down there.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's so, it's so messy. And there's I mean, for me, like, I'm still dealing. So my baby was born, I think just a month before your last one. So May 2020. Yeah, so they're really similar in age. And I'm still dealing with pelvic girdle pain, like they were like, oh, yeah, just as soon as as soon as the baby's born, you'll be fine. Two years later, I'm like, this is not okay? I am not fine. But like, the entire, you know, NHS Trust can't figure out what to do with me. So they're just washing their hands of it. But this is a separate podcast for a separate time. But yeah, sorry, what were you going to say?
Laxmi Hussain
No, I was gonna say I had really bad reflux with my eldest. And I think it's because they all had so much hair. They were literally born like wolves, all three of them. And they still had their sort of downy fluff all over their shoulders and back. But Zayn was born with shoulder length hair.
Laura Thomas
Wow. Did it all stay in or did it fall out and grow back in?
Laxmi Hussain
It all stayed in. It thinned when he was about six months, you know, from the seeping and stuff like that. And then it, you know, he's got incredible hair. But yeah, he was born with like shoulder length hair, his sideburns were like literally down to his jaw. And I had really, really bad reflux. And everyone was like, yeah, when he's born, it will go. And I've still, you know, sometimes there are foods that really trigger it. And it's mostly dairy now, and I never had a dairy issue before, and I will have really intense reflux, and everyone just thinks that I'm sitting around belching. It's from having my babies.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I think, you think that or I guess at least the narrative is that, you know, when you're pregnant, there are all these pregnancy induced changes to your body. And you kind of get the impression that that's like, contained to those nine, nine or whatever so months, but then nobody talks about kind of like the aftermath. Like they talk about it in terms of obviously diet culture talks about it in terms of like the size and shape of your body and how you have to like manipulate that back. But we don't talk about like the the internal changes, not just I think in terms of like, I think pain is a big one things that you're talking about reflux, but also I think a lot about just like the trauma that gets stored in our bodies as well, like you were talking about with breastfeeding. We also had a lot of issues with breastfeeding. Avery was in the NICU for almost two weeks when he was born, so we then had, like, this knock on effect on breastfeeding and that was really awful. And that all kind of just lives with you. Doesn't it? And we don't talk about that.
Laxmi Hussain
You know, when you have other children, everyone's like, well, you breastfed before, why can't you do it again, and that's not the case. So like, every single time, I had cracked nipples, bleeding nipples. Every single time, I had the milk coming in issue. And my milk took a lot of time, a long time to come in, like, normally, it'd be around seven or 10 days. And that's why all of my babies lost so much birth weight. Whereas, you know, other mums that I've known, their milk had already come in when they were pregnant, you know, they had milk. I didn't. And everyone just assumes if you've done it before, it's like riding a bicycle. It's not. Every child is different. Every one, I mean, even now, if my kids were sweets, they'd all be the complete opposite sweets, none of them would even look related to each other.
Laura Thomas
Just a bag of pick-and-mix. And, yeah, I mean, I've only got the one kid, but I can't imagine how you know, it's that it's that steep learning curve every single time. Breastfeeding is probably the single hardest thing that I've had to do. Not “had” to do, I don't have to do it. I'm fortunate that I had a choice, which not everyone does. But you know, it took so much for me. And I was, you know, privileged to have the resources to be able to get a lactation consultant, because nobody in the NHS was any fucking use. Well, they were. That's not fair. There were people that were helpful, but there were equally people who were very, very unhelpful.
Laxmi Hussain
Also don't have the resources, like you need more than 15 minutes with someone saying, Well, this is what's going to happen. And I remember specifically with my second she had problems latching and they were like, just hold her like this. And then by the time they'd gone away, I was like I forgot what they said. You're also in that buzz of a new baby, so much going on. So sleep deprived. Mentally, also, you change so much.
Laura Thomas
I had pictures and videos, and I still couldn't figure it out after they left. I want to completely change topics here.You know, something that you said off mic before we started recording was that before I approached you for this podcast, you hadn't really thought about food in relation to your work. And I'm really curious to hear what kind of threads you're pulling on having, you know, thought about it now.
Laxmi Hussain
I hadn't thought about it in relation to my work. But then I was like, it's so obvious that they go hand in hand because body image is related to is also so related to how much we eat and how we nourish ourselves. And there is so much stigma on you know, whether we're eating the right thing or and then how that directly results in what you look like and often can be a punishable act. And I think that's kind of what I've been, I don't know why I never thought about it before. But also, the way that I was raised, my parents were cooks. And it's part of who I am. And often I do share on my Instagrams, like when I'm on my Instagrams, sorry,
Laura Thomas
The Instagrams
Laxmi Hussain
And I do share on Instagram when I'm having time off like Christmas or in the summer and I love to cook. I really love to cook and, not just cook, I like to bake. I like to try things like that I've never tried before. Yesterday, I picked, like I've got two Mirabelle plum trees in the back garden. And they're really, really big and every year the plums grow and they smell incredible. And I never know what to do with them so I made a chilli tomato jam earlier in the year and it was so good. And I was thinking maybe I could adapt that for the plums because I think we don't have the correct weather here for the plums to be like they are in France but they are quite sour, quite tart. So you can eat a few and I do have quite a savoury palate but you can eat a few, but after a while, it's just too much. So I thought I'd make this jam. And that's kind of like how I think about things like I think about ingredients and I want to know how to cook them. And also growing up my parents had, I've just always been into food. Like my parents had a corner shop, very sort of London traditional corner shop, where you walk in and it's all the sweets and the chocolates, you know, by the counter. And then at the back, traditionally, I want to say like, because I grew up and I was born in London, you could go to the back and you could get a cup of tea in those polystyrene sort of cups. You know, those things are so rare now, but it's real nostalgia for me. And you know, back then they were like, 50p for a cup of tea. So my dad's from India, my mum was from the Philippines. And my dad thought, why don't I do some sort of food thing. And he had those kinds of display fridges that you can get at the butchers or at cafes. And he stacked them up with curries. And when he met my mom, he was already doing this and, you know, making and selling his curries. But they kind of joined forces and it became their family business. My mom is an incredible, was an incredible cook. And, you know, they kind of made it sort of Filipino inspired, Indian inspired, they had lots and lots of curries, my dad was vegetarian growing up, but then they because my mom kind of convinced him to try meat, they adapted a lot, so like became very, very varied. But they made incredible curries together. And you used to be able to like, to go to the back of the shop, get a cup of tea and, and my mom would also make incredible sandwiches. But rather than just picking up a traditional sarnie and a cup of tea, you could get a curry.
Laxmi Hussain
Who would come into the shop, like who were their patrons?
Laxmi Hussain
They were all locals. It was in St. John's Wood, which is where I was born. And that sounds very privileged. But back then it was very much sort of like, you know, it was very sort of, it didn't feel like that growing up. Now you go there, and I couldn't even afford a one bedroom flat there. But it was very sort of how I felt growing up in London, most people, most Londoners would remember, you know, 30-40 years ago. And, yeah
Laura Thomas
It's so lovely to hear about people's food histories, I suppose. And kind of what they were immersed in growing up. And I guess what I'm sitting with this is this question of you know what, given that you were so immersed in food, and it sounds like, you didn't explicitly say this, but I get the feeling that your parents are like feeders, right? Like they take pride and pleasure in feeding people. And I'm wondering, you know, with this all around you what has been your relationship with your appetite? And has that changed over the years?
Laxmi Hussain
Absolutely. I have always been a very big foodie. My mum said that when she was pregnant, all she wanted to eat was fruit. And I think that that is quite, that is a characteristic of mine like I will eat every fruit under the sun and I will forgo dinner or you know lunch and happily replace that with a banquet of fruit but it's just, it's just what I love. Like I had peaches for breakfast, but I will try every single, everything that's in the season I'm there. And that's kind of indicative of what my palate is like. I like things that are very fresh and I will try everything. But when I was growing up, I was more aware of things that smelled. And I think also, like I watched a programme recently, coming from an Asian background there was a lot more stigma growing up in a Western country with smells and that kind of thing with our types of food and the kind of culture or foods that I grew up with. And I very much grew up with a Filipino palate. My mom taught me all about our culture, we visited so often and I try to still visit but it's much harder to get there now, whereas I've never set foot in India. But my dad did teach me a bit about cooking just not, it's not natural to me, because I can't, I've not been around enough of the culture, for me to say yes, it needs a bit of that spice or whatever. Whereas with Filipino cooking, I know the recipes, or I know how to tweak it based on the taste. Whereas if you asked me to make a curry, I wouldn't know how to tweak it if it went wrong. It's like, that's kind of like, you know, you have a palette that you're able to adjust quite easily. And my natural is from Filipino culture. It's more sort of Eastern Asian type of foods. So yeah.
Laura Thomas
What I was kind of hearing you say, or I guess what I was thinking about there is just, again, this tension of you being really strongly tuned into your Filipino identity. And at the same time, it sounds as though at least while you're growing up, and I don't know if things feel different to you now, but that there was a stigma associated with that, you know, that type of food, that cuisine.
Laxmi Hussain
Absolutely, like you wouldn't, especially with a curry, you wouldn't walk up to school with a curry in a pack lunch. Whereas if, if it were now I'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, you want some? Like, whereas before I would have, I would have hidden it. And I remember once bringing something to lunch, when I was at primary school, and I can't remember what it was, but feeling quite embarrassed about what the contents of my packed lunch were. Because it wasn't like a sandwich. And then I remember after that, only bringing sandwiches if I had packed lunch, and back then you know, you could choose quite easily. Like, if I wanted to rock up today with a pack lunch, I could. Whereas today, you've got to, you've got to say, Oh, my child's gonna have packed lunch this week. Whereas then, you know, your child could pretty much say, Can I have a packed lunch today? And I Yeah, remember, it was either school dinners, or I'd make mum make me a sandwich, rather than bring in any of our home cooked foods. But now I'd be like, well you want to try some?
Laura Thomas
Yeah, what do your kids do for lunches?
Laxmi Hussain
They have school lunch, just because I can't get my head around the fact that, just because they're so affordable, that I wouldn't be able to make a cheaper lunch.
Laura Thomas
Right, there's a convenience there as well. But they're not getting sent with a curry to school.
Laxmi Hussain
No but, they go to school in quite, it's actually very diverse. We've got a lot of, we live, Wembley has a very large South Asian community. So for example, their food, their school doesn't have, all of their meat is halal, for example, which I thought was quite, quite cool, because we're a Muslim family. So that just makes that so much easier. And also, because of that, they don't serve any pork. So that also then means I don't have to watch. You know, I don't need to make sure that that's not what is going to happen at school. Although to be honest, they think it might slip into their food at some point in their lives. But it's just things like that, like their school is well thought out, like they will have if there is a specific week that celebrates a culture or or an festival or something, they will tailor the menu to, so like during Eid, I think they had a more sort of Muslim based menu. And then they do things like they will change the menu during Chinese New Year. And other events like they've, they often send us an email saying, Look, this is what's going, this is what's on the menu this week for this cultural event. And I think it's really quite nice and forward thinking for a school.
Laura Thomas
So they're really celebrating different cultures through the food that they have on offer.
Laxmi Hussain
Yeah, and even on a day to day basis, like the week is quite varied. So the children, the kids do tell me that they've had different experiences, which is quite nice.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, it's great that they're being exposed to things which again, sounds very different from your upbringing where you felt like you had to kind of hide your cultural foods and bring a sandwich in. I want to again, just as you're thinking about your kids, and I want to bring it a little bit back to your, your artwork as well. I'm wondering what you hope to teach your children through your depictions of bodies?
Laxmi Hussain
I think it's...
Laura Thomas
Why do you laugh? Why do you laugh at my question?
Laxmi Hussain
I think it's funny because the kids find it funny, I guess. Because when they look at nude naked bodies, kids find it funny, don't they? Like they find bums funny. And that's why I laugh.
Laura Thomas
Bums are funny, there's a bum just sitting on your shoulder. Just perched on your shoulder.
Laxmi Hussain
But, do you know, well, they've been coming to the studio with me, even my older kids for so long. And I'm never, I've never been embarrassed or felt like I've needed to cover up anything in here. Or change the way that I am when I'm in the studio, they're very aware of what my work is about. And they even talk about it at school. And, you know, they're quite open about it, especially my daughter. That's what I want to share with them, that there's nothing to be embarrassed about, regardless of what our bodies look like. And my mom didn't explicitly share this with me. But there is a really beautiful moment, well moments that my mom did share with me. Like she wasn't crude, but she also was like, quite proper, like she you know, if you were sitting in a particular way, and your pants were on show, like shut your legs. I think that's also like her time, that was quite normal. Whereas I think that although she was like that in public, I learned everything about the way that I feel about my body through my mom. So for example, that's the moment that I think about the most is that my mom would take a long bath on the weekend. And it usually was like, you know, brunch ish time like mid morning. And she went on a trip to the Philippines, when we were young, she found this perfectly round ovalish stone. And it wasn't pumice. But it was so smooth and had like, a porous texture to it, that it was the perfect stone for using as a pumice, like to rub your back and get rid of all that dead skin. And every time she'd have a long bath, she called me, like she'd leave the bathroom door open. And she called me and said, “Could you just scrub my back?” And, you know, like, that, never felt like an embarrassing moment for her. And she was very open about her body. In that short moment of time, I felt very comfortable that her body was normal. And I think although I do it much more explicitly, not explicit in the rude sense of the word, but much more openly, yes, that I hope that's the same message my children will understand. And not just for my daughter, but for my sons, too, that women's bodies aren't a particular shape or size or height, or, you know, they're so different. And I want them to know that that's normal. Because it has to, we have to feel that way. Like, I know that I probably won't change it hugely in my lifetime. But if I can change it for them, then I think that's a big deal. And hopefully, that will carry on forward.
Laura Thomas
Yeah. So you're hoping to just put a little kink in that narrative. That women's bodies should look a certain way you're trying to disrupt this idea in your kids and instil this sense that that bodies come in all shapes and sizes,
Laxmi Hussain
Yeah, exactly. And I already know from dressing my daughter, how it starts from so early on that we're just pushed as a society to normalise something that isn't true. And so the only way I can describe this is my daughter, she's much taller for her age. And also, she still has that roundness of her tummy that, you know, really young children have. And so it can be really difficult to find trousers for her. But just to put this into context, she's eight years old. And in order to find something that fits her waist, I need to go up to like 12, 13, sometimes even 14 years old. And when I asked others, and this is mostly High Street brands, and I've tried like, you know, shopping vintage or but vintage is worse, because it was much worse earlier. And I've tried. And actually, the only thing that seems to work is either hand me downs from the boy from my, from my eldest son or buying her boys trousers, and jeans. Otherwise, she's just in dresses all day long, which suits her fine because she loves dresses, but at the same time, they're not always practical.
Laura Thomas
Sure, yeah.
Laxmi Hussain
It's just, So when we've bought her, the thing that troubles me the most is having been a larger child, when I was young, up until I was a teenager, and always being told that I was overweight, and that I needed to lose weight, and then my clothes should fit better. And I would look so much nicer, I have such a pretty face, I would look so much nicer if I was just skinny. That I don't want her to feel that because I remember how damaging that was, and how, you know, even when I look back at photos and think that I actually looked normal, how I feel I looked normal as a kid, how I didn't feel normal. And I can remember specific outfits from photos, how awful I felt in them. And how conscious I was aware and how you know, how conscious I was of, you know, how they didn't fit properly. And I don't want her to feel that. But that's how difficult it is to even find clothes for her that, you know, I just took her on a shopping trip. And we tried on so many outfits, we were out for like, five, six hours. And we bought two pieces of clothing. Because nothing else fits.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, that's so hard. And I think, you know, as a parent, even if you are normalising for your child that, you know, we can size up, you know that the age sizes are just like a guide. They're not, you know, they don't tell us anything about our bodies, and you can pick the size that fits you, they are still going to be on some level, Because we live in diet culture and a world that is fat phobic that there is something wrong with their bodies. And so it's a real it's a real, yeah, a real struggle, if there's a kind of a disconnect between their chronological age and the age of the clothes that they're wearing. And you've reminded me and I can't remember the name of this company, but there is a company in the UK that are making clothes, I want to say that are for those exact kids, where they have bodies that don't, you know, some match some sort of arbitrary ideal, that, you know, you know, was probably based on a pattern from you know, like, like you were saying some kid from the 60s that just doesn't reflect how bodies have changed and also like the diversity in bodies, like the population of the UK is very different now than it was back then. And our bodies have changed and will continue to change and, and our clothing needs to kind of catch up with that, not vice versa. (NOTE: the brand I was thinking of is Alpha and Indigo)
Laxmi Hussain
Absolutely. It's very upsetting for me, actually, I find it very triggering. And I find myself trying to over protect her from that feeling because I know that I felt it. And I know how much I hated it. And there's sometimes I'll look back at a photo and I know I mentioned this earlier but think about how all I was focused on that day. And I think one of the photos I'm like, eight years old, probably, you know her age now and how I can't remember past that day, what I did, except for the fact that I hated what I was wearing, because it didn't fit me. And I never want her. I know that that's unrealistic for me to say, but I don't want that. And if it's not for her, then we need to fix it so that it's not for generations to come. And it dumbfounds me that we haven't fixed it already.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, I know. It's, I've got similar memories of my, my own childhood of, you know, being told that Oh, well. The skirt doesn't fit. I remember a school uniform once, and the skirt was kind of, you know when the skirt is too small for you. It comes up at the back. It kind of looks shorter at the back. And it's like really weird. But I remember that being my fault. Not the fault of the skirt. And I'm like, now, I think we have the language and the understanding a bit more. And not everyone is, you know, versed in this, but we have the tools more so to be able to point to the systems absolutely are the problem. You know, versus the individual. And we can externalise that shame we can externalise that blame, rather than holding on so tightly to it as probably you and I did growing up, for children, regardless of their gender. You know, they all need to learn that lesson that their bodies are not the problem.
Laxmi Hussain
Yes, absolutely.
Laura Thomas
But it's tough. It's so hard. And it's just one, it's just one more thing that as parents that we have to kind of wrestle with and have to figure out how, how we're going to approach it. And parenting is hard enough. It is. I mean, my friend was messaging me the other day, and was like, Oh, I'm worried that my, my daughter's gonna get bullied about X, Y, and Zed. And her daughter is the same age as mine, they're two. And I'm like, Oh, God, we have to worry about bullying.
Laxmi Hussain
Yeah and I think also something that's bothering me really recently is how much we gender young young children, like, that should be the age where they're growing up has nothing to do with gender. And, you know, I've tried to raise my children in quite a gender neutral environment, because it shouldn't dictate how we go and reach for things in life. And yes, obviously, we are going to come up with challenges, like all of the things that we detailed in motherhood and how women have such a disproportionate sort of treatment and experience of motherhood, but of parenthood. But I feel like this is the age where they need to be able to experience everything, regardless of who they are, like, you know, they should be able to do whatever they want, and experience it without having to experience it through gender. But for example, my youngest is two and he has long, long, long hair, it's almost down to his bum. Everyone is like, Oh, look at that pretty girl. Oh, she shouldn't be climbing up like that, or she's gonna hurt her legs. I'm just like, he's, it doesn't matter that he's a boy or a girl. Just because he's got long hair doesn't mean that long hair automatically means girl. And also, why can't boys have long hair? And also, why does it matter what he's doing? If he was a girl, and he wanted to climb up Mount Everest or obviously not, not at two years old, but why does it matter?
Laura Thomas
I'm, you know, hard agree. I am right there with you with a kid that I am doing my best to, you know, not put into any particular box, but that the world around me is, you know, determined to put into a box and yeah, it's the it's the constant kind of, I guess that question that you were kind of coming up against before is is wondering, you know how much overcorrecting do you do, like you're saying with the body image piece, versus giving them all the tools. And then trusting them? You've got it. Like, I mean, you've been a parent for longer than I have so you tell me if you know of a better way, but like this is where I'm at with it.
Laxmi Hussain
I think the gender thing affects me the most, because it's more like, I think, especially when it comes down to, boy means strong, and therefore your body is stronger and can deal with more things. And that's what I have a problem with because, especially with the way that I've had to go after my career, I think that shows, I'm not trying to blow my own horn here, but I've worked so hard physically and mentally. And I think that shows great strength, as well as raising my kids during the same time to nourish both of us, you know, so that I can do what I want. I've always dreamed I've wanted to do and also hopefully show them that they can dream for whatever they want. I think we really need to re-question what we deem as strength and why it's so appropriate that people are so strong and not vulnerable. And why vulnerability is a weakness. And I hope that showing, I think my recent mural in Wembley was something that I will always really be so passionate about in that my mural shows softness and femininity of the female form. But it's stuck in the most stark concrete jungle, which is traditionally home to football. And I think that is a win for me. And I hope it's a little bit of a win for that message that the two are so connected, that we need to start allowing those boundaries to blur and to become one.
Laura Thomas
Yeah, yeah, I think anytime we're stuck in binaries, that's when we run into big problems. Yeah. And that mural is so gorgeous. I hope I can get down there and see it at some point in real life. But I'm gonna link to it in the show notes so that people can see the video that you've made of it, because it really is so impressive. And I'm so like, yeah, it just makes me so happy that that's just like out there in the world for people to stumble across and see because, again, those forms and figures and that softness, and that vulnerability is usually hidden away. So like it being right there in your face is so exciting to me.
Laxmi Hussain
I think it was incredible. I felt it even more poignant, even though it didn't relate directly. But this year with the women's Euro, I felt it's the first time that I've actually felt that there was light shone on women's football, and I'm not, I don't follow football. But I felt really proud of the fact that they, you know, one that they won. And two that they were actually being shouted about and to also have recently painted a mural where they won that game. And to celebrate women's football felt really, really cool.
Laura Thomas
Okay, well, I'm from Scotland, so I can't comment on that. But I hear exactly what you're saying. So Laxmi, at the end of every episode, my guests and I share something that they've been snacking on, which can be a book, it can be a movie, a podcast, it can be a literal snack, it could be anything you want. So what do you have for us?
Laxmi Hussain
Well, I was thinking about this. And originally, I was going to talk about the fact that I'm feeling like enjoying the summer and regenerating my energy. But actually, a couple of days ago, I picked up a book on my trip to Ramsgate from a really good friend who's just opened a bookshop there. And it's called Elena Knows and it's a translation. She lives in, I want to say Buenos Aires, but I can't remember now but it's really beautiful. I'm already like seven chapters in but it's about a woman and it relates to me because my dad's got Parkinson's, and it's about an older woman who's got Parkinson's. And she's talking about a daughter that she's just lost. And I haven't really got right into the story. But what was really interesting to me is how much she's described about her every day, and how Parkinson's affects her. And it's been really interesting because my dad hasn't talked about how his Parkinson's affects him at all. And I know it sounds like a bit of a downer, but I really love learning about things, especially when it comes to you know, how people can feel, and I, and because I'm my dad's main carer, I think that it will really impact how I then relay and care back to him. And I think it's important that we learn, we still learn hard things because they're, they're how we then address and adapt and, you know, hopefully grow from them or, you know, move, not necessarily move past them. Because, you know, especially when it comes to things like grief, you don't move past it, but you, the essential thing that you need to learn is how to live with it. That's the thing that I've been learning for the last four years since I lost my mom is how to live with her not in this world. Because that's the hardest thing that I've ever had to do. And knowing that now my dad is going to not be here soon. How I can make the last part of his life, you know, how I can be the best person to him and knowing more about Parkinson's in that way, I think makes me feel like I understand more about what I'm going through. And hopefully I can be a better daughter. Cuz you know, caring is challenging. But yeah,
Laura Thomas
That's so beautiful. And I'll link to the book and also if you can send me your friend’s bookshop, I can pop a link to the bookshop as well. It sounds like a painful, but also beautiful and insightful read. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. My thing is, it feels a bit inconsequential. So I have been taking a break from Instagram, like I completely deleted it off my phone. My husband and I are taking time off the last week and this week, apart from recording this podcast, obviously. Just not having Instagram on my phone. Like I've been reading a lot more. I've been like more than that my brain has just had a lot more space to breathe. And I think kind of in the same way that you talked about having that summer reset to kind of help propel you forward creatively. Like I'm kind of seeing it that way as well that I just need to like, just stop.
Laxmi Hussain
I think that's really important, because I know you said it sounds inconsequential, but Instagram and social media in particular keeps us engaged all the time. And we need to step back from that, it's so healthy to step back from that, but there is no message that it's healthy to do that. And I think that's really important as well.
Laura Thomas
Laxmi, tell everyone before we go where they can find out more about you and your work.
Laxmi Hussain
My website is thislaxmi.com and on Instagram @thislaxmi.
Laura Thomas
Thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation to talk to you.
Laxmi Hussain
Thanks so much for having me.
Laura Thomas
Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week.
Laura Thomas
Laura Thomas
Laura Thomas